So, here's a battle strategy I just thouyght up with, and I want you to evaluate it.

First, some assumptions:
* The game being played is either the Classic or Enhanced edition of Baldur's Gate 2, with no mods. (In other words, it's an unmodded official release of the game.)
* Game difficulty is set to either Normal or Core Rules.
* Charname is either a Mage or a Sorcerer, and (without loss of generality) is female.

So, here's the strategy:
* In preparation, Charname casts a Spell Trigger, and puts 3 Fireballs in it, then the party rests.
* One the battle starts, Charname casts Project Image.
* The image then charges toward the enemies, then once surrounded, launches the Spell Trigger on herself, blowing up herself and the surrounding enemies.
* Unfortunately, it seems that the enemies have the real Charname surrounded, so she quickly casts Spell Immunity: Evocation on herself, manages to survive to the next round, and then launches her own Spell Trigger, blowing up the enemies with the fireballs (and relying on Spell Immunity: Evocation to survive them).
* She then immediately casts Project Image again.
* It seems the player forgot that the Spell Trigger had already been cast, so the palyer then has the image cast another Spell Trigger.
* Then, the image goes and blows herself up with another triple Fireball from the Spell Trigger.

So, how does this strategy sound? (If there's anything wrong with it, please be specific about where the strategy fails, and be sure to mention which version you are talking about, as there are some version differences that are relevant to this discussion.)

Seems generally sound. I assume that this is a solo run? Generally blasting your immediate surroundings with Fireball tends to lead to some VERY unhappy party members. ;) If it's a solo run, maybe consider using Sunfire (the 5th level variant that's centered on the caster, but does not harm the caster herself) instead of Fireball; it deals 5d6 more damage and does not run the risk of self-damage, and it still falls within the 6th level limit of Spell Trigger.

EDIT: Assuming, of course, that the intent is to keep the Image alive so that you can unload more spells from your arsenal before it dies. Throwing on Mirror Image + Stoneskin could help provide some padding so you can dump some Death Fog or Cloudkill spells in the middle of the enemy, just to hamper any spellcasters or ranged attackers that hang back when the melee foes start charging your main character.

EDIT2: I just remembered that, if you like the above idea, what you can do is load up a Minor Spell Sequencer as well that has Web+Stinking Cloud saved in it, and then dump that on your location for some extra CC hassle for enemies to deal with while sitting in your Cloudkill/Death Fog.

Well, one could solve the problem just by keeping away from the rest of the party, or alternatively making the rest of the party immune to the spells (via Fire Resistance or Spell Immunity: Evocation).

There's one interesting aspet of using Spell Triggers to throw Fireballs (or Skull Traps) on yourself, that is also triggered by Sunfire; in the classic edition, any spell cast on yourself will ignore magic resistance. This means that the triggered spells will reliably harm enemies with magic resistance; it also means that Spell Immunity: Evocation won't actually provide any protection here,and therefore the strategy is very likely to result in a dead charname and a game over. (It also means that (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability is also of no help.) The Enhanced Edition changed this particular quirk, so that magic resistance and immunities are no longer ignored.

I should also point out that, to my understanding, Mirror Image + Sunfire can result in the loss of an image, as Sunfire is still technically a damaging attack on the user (it's just that Sunfire also grants 100% fire resistance for half a round); this also means that if Sunfire is cast via Contingency, it will disrupt any spell that she is trying to cast. (Or, at least this happens in the CE; I don't know if the EE works this way.)

(There's also the fact that Project Image and spell triggers don't mix, which is another problem with the strategy.) Actually, that's not quite the intent; the intent is to let the Image die so that I can summon another one that still has most of the spells still uncast, so I can cast them again, and so on until I run out of Project Image spells. This works fine in the classic edition, but in the enhanced edition (at least in the one version of Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition, which is based off the same code and includes most of the BG2 spells), the game won't let you cast a second image until the first one ends or the caster is hit with Dispel Magic. It seems that this was done to prevent the exploit of putting multiple Project Image spells in a Chain Contingency, but in doing so, they broke what I consider to be a legitimate strategy.

Huh. I was never aware of that. Interesting to know! And that actually reminds me of something I read on the Beamdog forums about spell strategy. Apparently the EE changed it so that beneficial spells such as Cure spells or Death Ward or Chaotic Commands etc. will always go through MR. This has hence led to a new strategy where the player deliberately casts Magic Resistance (the 5th level Cleric spell) on enemies with a naturally high MR to temporarily set their MR to a much lower level (max 40% at level 20). Ahh, I see. I haven't really played around with PI much; so what you're saying is that the PI's list of memorised spells is essentially kept track of separately and if you cast multiple PI's, each successive PI has less and less memorised spells as previous images cast their spells?

Each PI has the same spells that the original caster had available when the spell was cast, minus the PI that was just cast. Hence, if you have 2 PIs memorized and cast 1, the PIs will each have 1 PI memorized; once it ends, casting the other PI with the original caster will result in PIs with 0 PIs available. If the original caster hasn't cast any spells, the later PIs will still have all the spells that the earlier ones already used up.

This particular use of the spell is especially nice on a Sorcerer, since each image can choose to spend its spell slots differently.

The interaction of Project Image and sequencers/contingencies is, IIRC, as follows:
* If a PI tries to launch a sequencer, I believe nothing happens, and the sequencer is still displayed as available to use for the PI (as if it hadn't been launched).
* If a PI casts a sequencer or contingency in the CE, the menu appears, but typically there's no way to select spells to place in it, resulting in a softlock.
* If a PI casts a sequencer or contingency in the EE, a message to the effect of "PIs can't cast sequencers or contingencies" appears in the combat log and nothing else happens.
* (I do not know what happens if an AI controlled character casts a sequencer or contingency; this never happens in the vanilla game. If it looks like an enemy used a sequencer or contingency, it's really just the enemy's script makein it use ReallyForceSpell() to cast the spells instantly for free, along with some text. I would predict a softlock if the AI did use this spell, as I suspect the player would then be faced with the window for picking spells.)

It's also worth noting that certain effects that are scripted to affect the entire party, like Mass Raise Dead and certain (Limited) Wish effects, will only affect characters in slots 1-6, and will not affect Projected Images.

IIRC there's a bug with illusory clones casting Contingency/Sequencer/Trigger spells. In most cases it just doesn't work. In the other cases the game would crash. This bug was never fixed even in the EE. These spells would open the caster's spellbook GUI, but the clone doesn't really have one, so the game would open the spellbook of the first character who has a spellbook in the party list. This issue is more easily seen if you try this with a party member rather than charname; the whole process just gets messed up.

As for the "strategy" itself, if it's really a "strategy", then you should have cast Immunity Evocation on yourself before starting the fight. If it's really a "strategy", then every single step should be calculated or planned. You don't "forget" or "unfortunately something happens" in a "strategy".

So basically you just want to throw a triple Fireball three times? Then first, use Spell Sequencer, the 7th level spell, instead of Trigger. Prepare one Sequencer with 3x Fireball beforehand, then memorize six Fireball slots and two Sequencer slots, then rest. Cast all necessary protections on yourself before combat starts. First round: throw Sequencer. Second round: prepare another triple Fireball Sequencer. Third round: throw the second Sequencer. Repeat.

I remember testing this in IWD:EE, and trying to have a clone cast a Sequencer or Contingency spell would just yield the message that clones can't use such spells. While it might be disappointing, I suppose that might be better than the game potentially softlocking.

(By the way, using a save editor, I discovered that in BG2 classic that, if a Sorcerer with one of the Wizard's specialty school kils levels up, the game will require a spell of the character's school to be chosen for each eligible level at level up time; if there's at least one such spell of the level, but all such spells have been learned, you are forced to press escape and not learn any spells from the level up. Of course, the fact that you can escape out of that screen feels odd to me, as it would (under normal circumstances) permanently gimp your character.)

This topic was actually made to try to get some discussion going about some of the game's mechanics, and about some differences in the mechanics between the games.

However, there is actually a reason for using Spell Trigger instead of Spell Sequencer; all of her 7th level spell slots are filled with Project Image spells! Simulacrum just won't do, as the clones created come level drained and have significantly more limited spell casting capability (in particular, are unlikely to be able to cast the likes of Spell Sequencer themselves, even ignoring the fact that those spells don't function properly on clones). Because of the strange way the game segregates magic resources by level, I can't just use an 8th level spell slot for Project Image or Spell Sequencer; they both compete with each other for the same resource, while Spell Trigger does not.
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It sounds brilliant.


Have you tested it?

No, I have not (particularly since I don't play this game), but if you look carefully at the strategy, there are some problems with it. If I remember correctly:

* Clones can't launch Spell Triggers. You can try to launch one (if the original character cast one before hand), but nothing will happen.
* In the Classic Edition, Spell Immunity does not protect against your own spells. Interestingly enough, the spell also ignores magic resistance when cast on yourself via a Spell Trigger (but not fire resistance, though fire resistance can't protect against spell disruption). The Enhanced Edition fixed it so that Spell Immunity *does* protect against your own spells, and so that the spell no longer ignores magic resistance.
* Having a clone cast Spell Trigger doesn't work. In the Classic Edition, strange bugs can occur; supposedly this can let you put someone else's spells into a trigger (I haven't gotten this to work), but a softlock is quite likely (the screen for selecting spells to put in the trigger appears, but there are no spells to choose). In the Enhanced Edition, you instead get a message to the effect of "clones can't cast sequencers and contingencies", and the spell does nothing. (I think having the spell outright fail is better than having a potential softlock).

Of course, I forgot another bit of the "strategy"; after all this (does not) happen, I try to have the clone cast Mirror Image, but unfortunately, she's run out of second level spells, so I have her use Limited Wish to restore low level spells (possible with 16 WIS), and then have her cast Mirror Image. (This strategy fails because Limited Wishes that affect the party don't affect clones; the clone can cast the spell just fine, it just doesn't affect the clones and only affects the original party.)

(With all this said, I am currently enjoying some classic Wizardry; there's a trick in Wizardry 2 that allows you to exponentially increase your level that involves intentional death and level draining.)

I wonder how a dungeon master might react to this strategy in a P&P game.

Interestingly, JK Rowling made a tangential comment in her later book, The Deathly Hallows, whereby she revealed some Advanced Phlebotinum* rules for magic in her universe, whereby magic can enhance something else, but it cannot create something ex nihilo, so this would have an impact on (magical) clones and any spells they might cast.


________
* I think Joss Whedon's Buffy writing partner, David Greenwalt, confused phlebotinium with Phlogiston.

Here is my initial thoughts on how I might handle it as a DM, assuming each piece is at least allowed to exist. (Note that I don't actually play the tabletop game, though I at least am familiar with many of the rules and have an idea of how the dynamics might differ from a computer game.)

* Spell Trigger to store 3 fireballs: Perfectly OK.
* Project Image: OK, though the version described in the AD&D rules might not work. So, let's suppose we have something stronger, like a spell I call Phantom Warrior (taken from Romancing SaGa), which does allow cloning of resources, though one difference is that the clone is able to attack. (This spell would probably be 9th or Epic level.)
* Image charging towards the enemies and launching trigger; I would allow it if Phantom Warrior is used. The image, however, would now be dead, causing the spell to expire. (Note that, if the rules allow attacks of opportunity, the enemies would get them against the image if applicable.)
* This use of Spell Immunity followed by the trigger would work.
* Recasting Project Image (or, rather, Phantom Warrior): Again, would work.
* Image casts Spell Trigger: Would allow it.
* Image blowing herself up: Would be allowed.

Of course, there *are* many things that could go wrong here, and importantly this version of the strategy involves a spell that would be at least 9th level.

A few other points regarding this Phantom Warrior spell:
* In Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song (the game I got this spell from), the clone created by this spell can't use fusion spells, so perhaps one might argue that the clone can't use sequencers or triggers.
* Also, the RS: MS version of the spell has another quirk, in that beneficial spells do not work on the clone. Hence, one could argue that the clone's attempt to cast Spell Trigger would fail (but that the clone could launch one that already exists). To give another example, if Spell Immunity: Evocation were in that game, the spell would affect the clone if cast on the original before hand, but would not work if cast after the fact.
* In the 3rd edition of the tabletop game, there is one spell, found in the Epic Level Handbook, that can be interpreted to allow resource cloning: Time Duplicate. The description of the spell can be found at
[url=https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Duplicate]https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Duplicate[/url]
The spell differs in that, among other things, the clone exists at the same time as the original, and the original's resources are depleted after the spell ends. It does not, however, describe what happens if both the original and clone use up that same resource, so the character would logically have a negative amount. (I would, perhaps, allow the last charge of a wand, or a consumable like a scroll or potion, to be used twice, but perhaps the character has a negative amount of that resource in her inventory, and that may cause strange occurances.) In any case, this spell provides a good benchmark to try and compare this Phantom Warrior spell to.

In any case, Project Image, at least in its D&D 3.5 version, doesn't allow the clone to cast spells unless they're illusion spells; it does not say anything about how resources are handled. That would likely disqualify its use of triggers, but would, as written, allow the clone to cast Shadow Evocation to mimic a fireball.

(Note that this discussion assumes that the player doing this hasn't acted in ways that make the game less fun for others involved; if other players aren't getting to do much, or if it gets too hard to give the party reasonably appropriate challenges, then I might disallow something, or perhaps the group might decide that the power level involved is too high and the campaign would end. Remember that the Phantom Warrior spell I describe could reasonably be seen as being epic level, and D&D's mechanics break down at high levels, as can be seen with my example of a 1% level difference making the difference between 5% and 95% accuracy once you're at level 4000.)

1 skull traps are better than fireballs because they stay in place... effect becomes a landmine for extra options + more things in the game are going to resist fire damage

2 invis characters work better, allowing you to move them into a good spot before going pop!

3 as an aside Bard is the better class for the trick because both the spells do per-level damage and a bard will always have more levels than other spell users

most of the time you don't need to go to that much trouble but having 3 X damage ready to go at any time is a good idea

(It sounds like you didn't actually read the posts in this topic. In particular, the strategy I posted fails because of quirks in the game engine (and may even softlock the game in the classic edition).)

Anyway:

* Skull Trap is harder for enemies to resist, but is also harder for *you* to resist. Protection from Fire won't help, while Protection from Magic Energy is 6th level (and competes with the likes of Improved Haste and Mislead). (Before you mention globes of invulnerability and spell immunity, note that they will not help in the classic edition, as they don't protect you against your own spells; also, in the classic edition Fireball on Self via sequencer or contingenty ignores magic resistance.)
* Project Image is a 7th level spell, which Bards do not get.

skull trap > fireball because fireball is limited to 10d6 and skull trap isn't