Oh I wish I was mature enough to call you immature and attack your preferences as well. Shame I'm too childish for that :-/


Pretty hard to give a good example when all you have to do is to say 'I didn't like it' to disprove it, now is it? :-P
At any rate, when it comes to my preferences, Prince of Persia: Warrior Within implemented QTEs quite well from as objective standpoint as I can get, and as for level scaling, I think there's a lot of good examples troughout the entire discussion

Well at least you proved your initial assumption right, people who like DRM are obviously assholes.

Actually I was just interested in a general opinion of a particular game you would consider having good QTEs or level scaling but yeah, it's probably better going from an objective standpoint.

For example, in my (professional) opinion QTEs should never be too quick that you've no time to see what needs to pressed, it should be about careful timing not luck to find the right key and some form of consistence so that it doesn't become a wacky scale of pressing a whole bunch of buttons rather than trying to find a good combinations with careful timing. I would also argue that they become a poor way to artifically increase challenge in case you leave too many obstacles after each other so if you fail the last one before a check point or a situation where you can save freely you've to redo them all but this particular point may be more subjective as the more I play games the more I've grown passed situations where I need games to be overly dramatic (gameplay or otherwise) that I don't feel them lacking suspense only because I'm safe to save whenever I want.

Unfortunately I don't remember how QTEs were in Prince of Persia: Warrior Within specifically.

You know ... I'm fairly sure I have never attacked neither you, nor your preferences. And I have never suggested you are an asshole. Which turned into you suggesting I am an asshole. Here's how it is: You don't actually have any arguments to stand your ground in this particular discussion, so when I have suggested everything is down to personal prference, you have started attacking me. So... Yeah.
And I am an idiot, I meant The Two Thrones. Basically, when it comes to QTEs, I like those that enhance the gameplay in some manner and don't lead to automatic state of failure - in TTT, QTEs were in a form of you having to press left mouse button when your dagger was glowing during stealth kills. The tougher the enemy you were attempting to assassinate, the harder the QTE. It was always just a single button and purely a game of reflexes. I've got another example actually, Gears of War and active reload system - if you pressed reload button again at the right moment, you have reloaded straight away, but if you have missed your moment, you were reloading for even longer than if you didn't press it at all.

WTF I have no arguments? Have you even read anything? What about the fact that many level scaled games have been improved by mods while NONE have been improved by adding level scaling?

This is your only post in this thread where you say a game became better (for you) once you modded level scaling out of it. Also you said that adding level scaling to Fallout or Might and Magic wouldn't work, which is more or less the same as saying Real Time Jagged Alliance 2 would suck (it doesn't actually, but it's only fun for autoresolve, you can't control your mercs).
The rest of the thread was you saying "All level scaling is evil" and the rest of us giving you examples of non-evil level scaling, until you did make a concession of "Ok, not all level scaling is bad, but I've been burned too many times to allow it to exist" (paraphrased).
So please, enlighten me, which games are better by modding level scaling out? Does Darklands become better? Does Rogue or Nethack? Does Ultima 3? Might and Magic 2? Borderlands? Wizardry 8? And does it become better for you or does it also become better for me, who enjoys those games with their current level scaling?

No you pretty much don't. (edit / correction:) the only arguments were incentive to level, which oddly enough most people don't seem to have a problem with, be it TES or other lvl scaled games, and "strategic possibilities" of getting better loot you usually shouldn't be able to get that early. (/edit)
You bring opinions, not facts or arguments. You claim it to be so, because it doesn't enhance your play style, therefor it is, while ignoring other play styles that benefit from it.

You claim level scaling in Fallout would have sucked. That's an opinion.
I brought reasoning why it "could" have worked. I wanted to know if it's possible to head straight south and then work your way up north. You pretty much ducked it. So I'd have to go with the claim, it being lvl-walled. Successfully going through a lvl-wall with a run or die approach, is NOT freedom of movement. Level scaling would have allowed that, making room for more options. That's an argument.
Now for if that "would" have worked better - for your play style probably not, for mine yes. If that "would" have made the game itself better, is again just opinion.

A fact is, that from over 3 million Skyrim users on PC, only around 60k found level scaling so off, that they downloaded a mod (Requiem) to change it. On the other hand, over 600k preferred Skyrim Redone which leaves level scaling and focuses on rework / adding to the perk system.
60k for no level scaling vs 600k for the same but more of it? That's a argument.

Many scaled games been improved by mods? Which many?
Oblivion yes, almost all would agree that it's gotten way overboard.
Morrowind? Nope. We have to agree to disagree here. Fact is: I just tried and have a pretty hard time finding even one mod about changing level scaling for Morrowind.
Dragon Age? Found one, apparently only somewhat successful doing so mod.
Others?

For everything else and the reason why there's no mod to add level scaling to a game - check how many games actually offer modding abilities, as it is key to change that in the first place. Not so many and about none offering as much as Bethesda for their games. That's a fact.
Implying that this lack of mods adding level scaling is prove for anything, is again just opinion.

And yet there is still no mod to bring level scaling to a game, why not? Because it would be RIDICULOUS, nobody wants level scaling, even you guys don't want it, that thas become clear. You pride yourself with the games where level scaling is just a minor annoyance or barely noticable and parade that as if that would mean it is necessary or an improvement. Oblivion is just a bad example, which must not be mentioned. And yeah Morrowind was annoying,too, and that was before I was even familiar with the word and concept, it still bugged me and I remember searching on the internet why there arent any strong creatures ANYWHERE, not even near that center. It was then that I learned of this lazy technique to make the game idiot proof.
And Jmich keeps asking me how games would have been better without it, as if that would yield something, if I answer, you will accuse me of it being my personal opinion, so lets test that theory. I have defended Wizardrys 8 minor scaling on this forum when it was released, but only because it plays a minor irrelevant part, it is just a little annoying, it would still be better without it, there is no question about that. And yes it would become better even for you. You would not be restricting your loot by entering an area too soon, you would not be bugged by stronger and stronger monsters in areas you have already cleared and you would feel a better sense of accomplishment when some mobs dont just magically level up with you. I still recommended the game because those are minor annoyances.

@Siannah You are not even worth replying to anymore but I will try anyway, at least JMich seems to understand words and logical reasoning, you just keep brabbling on the same fallacies on and on. Level scaling in Fallout 1 bad=my opinion? Funny funny, may I direct your attention to Fallout 3, second only to Oblivion in its absurdity.
Level walls is just one example I have already explained to you. Although JMichs comparisons are a bit funny,too, real time jagged alliance? controller support? Come on put some effort into this.

This is the post you are talking about, right? Where you explain that mobs don't level down, only level up, and that there is still a level cap on scaling. So you won't be fighting level 50 mudcrabs, and you won't have that much of an added challenge when you return to an already cleared area. Also, should you be able to go to a higher level area too early, and grab the loot, you are still not losing any of the loot. So what would the changes be if there was no level scaling? The fact that some monsters would remain lower level than the one you would fight them at?

P.S. Real Time JA2. More Real Time JA2. Not to mention JA2 plays just fine on a phone. You want a link for that as well?

Yes, it would only be minor improvements, but still, it serves no purpose in Wiz8, except to annoy.

Please dont tell me about real time JA2, there is no need to horrify me further.

For you, level scaling in Wizardry 8 is an annoyance. For me it's added challenge. Especially since it doesn't level down the enemies, only up.

I'm not telling. I'm demonstrating from a modified JA2 game (just skip a flag check, and you're set). Reason JA2 doesn't work with real time combat is because it wasn't built and balanced around real time combat. You could have a decent to excellent tactical combat game in real time as the UFO:A? series has shown. But you can't make the game using a feature and then remove said feature to "improve" the game, you'll usually end up butchering it.

P.S. Jagged Alliance 2 also uses scaling, didn't I mention that before? Both enemy composition, enemy gear and equipment availability depend on your progress, which means you have to capture and improve town loyalty to be able to get better gear (and fight better equipped soldiers). Removing scaling from JA2 really makes the game suffer. So here's (another) example of a game that if you remove scaling from, it becomes worse and isn't improved.

But in Wiz8 it mostly adds annoyance, for everyone. That begins with recommending to new players not to level too much in the monastery, because without equipment the scaled enemies on the Trynton road will be near impossible to later being pissed off by mudcrabs who are stronger than they should be and finally not trying to enter an area to soon because the chest loot will scale permanently to your level at that time. Not to mention having to fight your way through the same scaled enemies while trying to visit a shop in the first city.

The area scaling JA2 features is exactly what I have been trying to advocate to you guys and now you present it to me like some sort of revelation. Why are you bugging me again? You want the same thing as me, no lazy scaling to the player. Instead do it like in JA2, by area!

And yet there is still no mod to bring level scaling to a game, why not?
- answered that, you ignore it

Because it would be RIDICULOUS - assumptions, explained how it "could work", you ignore it

nobody wants level scaling - false allegation

even you guys don't want it - more false allegation

... and parade that as if that would mean it is necessary or an improvement
- brought up examples (joining guilds / different approach of open world vs. lvl-walled / Mass Effect / Dragon Age) several times, with absolutely NO solution on how to do that without lvl scaling from you - you ignore it

Morrowind was annoying,too ... why there arent any strong creatures ANYWHERE, not even near that center
- enemies inside the Ghostgate are among the strongest BY DEFAULT (except wildlife, no lvl 40 rats), no lvl scaling changed that. So yes, you've been wandering / leveling dozens of hours / lvls to get even near that point. If even Golden Saints with 80 combat and 90 magic skills where laughable and weak, tell us what lvl you had at that point otherwise - false allegation

Level scaling in Fallout 1 bad=my opinion? Funny funny, may I direct your attention to Fallout 3, second only to Oblivion in its absurdity.
- a) Desslock explains level scaling on Fallout 3 = facts, with the exception of the last part, that's opinion.
b) If this is "second only to Oblivion in its absurdity" then yes, that's an opinion.
c) even WITH that opinion of yours, that's by NO MEANS prove that it couldn't have worked in Fallout 1
d) going lengths to explain how it "could" have been done and what it would have brought to the table, is useless - you ignore it.
e) your opinion != general knowledge

- @Siannah You are not even worth replying to anymore ...
In THAT point, we can finally agree...

I think there's a case that can be made for enemy scaling.

First off, games that have static enemies need to make you aware when you're potentially heading into an area that your character isn't going to cope with. Maybe you bump into a character at a crossroads who checks your stats and advises you on the appropriate path to take. Or you see a sign that says "Valley of Cookie Monsters" to the left and "Swamp of Death" to the right. So if I take my level 1 character to the right, I'm prepared to suffer, but maybe I manage to take out a few of the enemy with a health potion or two to spare, and get rewarded with a higher level weapon which I can then grab and scamper back the way I came and proceed to go and plunder the valley instead until I'm ready to head back to the swamp. The point is, it stops becoming fun when I have to use trial and error to figure out where it is safe for me to go until my character has levelled sufficiently to handle that area.

On the other hand, when designers create a game with enemy scaling, they're allowing you to access more of the game's world from the beginning, and don't have to worry about creating "signposts" in the game to indicate where it's safe for you to go, since you can potentially go anywhere and get the sense that you really are exploring.

For me personally, I think I like a little enemy scaling. The action RPG games I enjoy the most are the one's that present me with an initial challenge. Then I manage to find that piece of equipment which along with a few improved stats for my character, after levelling up, allows me to go and deal serious damage for a bit until I get back to the point where I am starting to battle a bit but struggle on in the hope I find a new piece of equipment that turns the tide again, and so on. So the game never gets monotonous where I'm just a walking tank, but I still get the sense that I'm getting more powerful as time goes by. I admit that it's a fine balancing act and exceedingly difficult for any game developer to get 100% right.

Case in point for some debate about enemy scaling: there's a particular boss in Sacred 2 that my Temple Guardian is battling to defeat. The annoying thing is that as I level up, so does the boss, and in the last couple of showdowns, I haven't managed to do much more damage, if any, than I did a number of levels ago. Granted, the boss is optional, but I'd still like to beat it. In this type of scenario, I'd like to get rewarded a bit for my level grinding efforts and feel like I'm making progress. I'm not saying I'm not at fault for perhaps choosing a wrong character build or not figuring out the right way to defeat the boss, but after a couple of level-ups and some better equipment I scrounged, I should at least feel like I'm making some progress. But on the whole, the enemy scaling in Sacred 2 seems fine, and for a game with such a huge open world, it's almost perfect and keeps the game being addictive.

Area scaling? Area scaling is only part of JA2 scaling system. Do you want a thorough explanation? I can give you one if you want me to. Let's just say though that Bobby Ray doesn't care in which place on the map you are, only how much you have progressed (press V. It should tell you your current game progress). Same for Devin and Tony. Same for Iggy showing up to offer to join. Same for Madlab. Same for Crepitus.
Also, Drassen. Drassen is (in theory) the second town you go to. So you expect to face still crappy weapons there. If Drassen is the fourth town (Omerta, San Mona, Chitzena, Drassen) you won't be facing crappy weapons, but decent ones. If you also take Cambria and Alma before hitting Drassen, you will be facing Assault Rifles. That isn't area scaling, that is level scaling.
And before you go quoting Headrock's "How does it work", he has forgotten to take note of progress, which does add quite a bit to it (though not as much as distance).

But feel free to correct me about JA2, it's not as if my first modification (which I'll have to resubmit) was about externalizing that scaling...