Its completly backward to compare PnP to computer game. Because it lack real life DM)and DM implementation of neither Nwn nor in Nwn2 even comes closer to a way that a decent real life DM can interprite situations. In pnp I can create illusion of bridge, making a monster caravan fall to their death. This won't work in computer game(unless its hightly scripted contextual spell, which means it most likely won't exist in player created mod). Additionally there are a lot of fights in both nwn and nwn2. So classes abilities had to be enhanced in comparesment to PnP by pushing direct buffing and dd abilities. I didn't noticed that you for example said anything about druid and ranger loosing animal handling abilities(was it used anywhere ever? Apart talking with like one bear and one wolf in sotu). Second - good dm will houserule many things. For example lets think about RDD getting spell progression here and take most standart RDD build (Fighter 14\Bard1\RDD10\Frenzied Berserker 5) and give him spell progression. Guess what, we get 11 lvl caster bard and just two levels short of getting greater heroism to boost his already insane damage dealing capabilities. Real life DM would have reject such character outright, or he would setup situations, where this character would be less the effective.

Additionally, as I said - game was based around idea of party. One balor form with bab replacement would have rendered your party melee fighter useless. Game tries to push classes together and give them defined role in fights. Hell, its still insanely easy to play through OC with Elanee, Quara, Sand and you as a wizard or sorc in party(and neeshka who can't do anything) Hell if you go AT, you can even replace neeshka with Grobnar and make him a tank under inspire defence and few buffs.

No' I'm just saying that playing Sorc 30 is literally gimping yourself, because there more then enough cross class capabilities to go with. And EK is insanely easy to get since addition of fighter 1 for feat(most likely for Improved Combat expertice, which is required feat for any caster since you can cast in it) or pal 2 for saves(or even pal 4 for, you know, divine shield). Just don't half your caster class with lamemaster. Hell, my first sorc was Sorc 20/Asoc 10 and it was really easy to play(bigby hands + conjure shadow, was more then enough for Akachi). Hell, if you play your cards right you can get sorc 18/favourite souls 18 casting spell list. No armor for you then(couse you won't be able to push neither EK, nor autostill there, but who need it when you can cast heal xD.

The less you multiclass, the less feats you get, the more you rely on cheesy stuff(duelist, khm, duelist) - the more you rely on magic items. Hell, cleric +stormlord don't even care about using decent spear/enchanted axes. Does it mean that they are as strong without insanely powerful items as with them? No. Does it meany you need to craft nonstop and stuck up cheap stuff with PTWF monk 12 under permahaste and +8 kamas with +5d6 of every element in all its gamebreaking glory to play relatively easy? No. Good build can be made to work with medium loot. Loot won't save bad build.

tell me, how exactly are you going to counter somewhat like 50/- DR with elemental weapon? You will subject yourself twice to DR. Once elemental damage and once normal. While this guy you are fighting is holding 2d6+5 scyth with vampiric regeration +2? Crit iimunity would just make it harder to put this guy down unless you have huge str score.Oh, and did I mentioned that this build can get devastating critical if player would setup his stats and feat juuust right? xD

Unless you are a weapon master with already high crit chance weapon. If its weapon with keen effect and you have Improved critical feat with Ki critical to boost you get 10-20 crit threat range. If you able to hit enemy on 10 and up, your every strike is crit threatened. Yes, crit threat doesn't means scoring hit, but still I'd say that a lot more crits then 4 out of 20. And without WM it a bit less often, somewhat like 12-20 crit threat. Yeah, that's why rapiers were so popular choice in nwn xD

Also I want to return to timestop spell and analyse it. Its stop time for 9 seconds(one round) 9 level nonsomatic spell, unresistable and unsavable. In nwn2 we has this EK guy with 9 caster levels and high bab. So lets imaginve some sort of melee build that has pal 4 to EDM, around 22 str and cha score and 9 lvl arcane sorc spells(its possible even now. This guy wouldn't get autostill, but he gets persist). He wears fullplate(mythral fullplate for extra ownage), good shield, bracers of armor - in other words its hard to hit him. Lets imagine he cast permanent haste on him for uber extra ownage. He comes into melee range, use edm(+16 divine damage for 16 rounds) cast timestop(since arcane spell fail from armor does not applied to nonsomatic spells and his overall AC is decently high to not get smacked by everyone, and he of course has good concentration, cause why wouldn't he?) and whale on poor enemy for a round with 7 attacks. And he can repeat it up to 4 times(him having around 5 casts of lvl 9 spells, with one cast being wasted on permahaste. Maybe even more if he has a ring, through I'm not sure it has place in game, like myrkul scythe). Don't you think that's a bit... gamebreaking?

If you are building a fighter. You can just hit the "recommend" button and pay ZERO attention to building your character.

Give him an one of the Silly NWN2 crafted weapons and he will destroy a carefully crafted fighter with normal weapons.

I am not sure why you are writing massive posts here defending the completely silly crafting in NWN2.

Again. Nobody here is saying that nwn2 is a bad nor that nwn1 have no flaws. Yes, be unable to give equipment to your party is a great flaw , yes, there are some broken things in nwn1 but i disagree that in nwn you can't be tactical nor etc. About you can't have a eRPG like pnp RPG, i disagree. Some aspects are hard do impossible to be implemented like teleport to another realms in a eRPG but the majority of rules, classes and spells can easily be implemented.

And the lack of DM makes the game far more linear in history telling, i agree.

About timestop, you can't attack during the time stop. Of course, you can conjure a firewall or a delayed blast fireball only because this spells affects your enemy after the time "backs" but guess what. The majority of this spells deal fire damage and a lot of creatures are resistant to fire.

Time stop is used to buff, heal, conjure minions and escape not to kill enemies if they have no change.

And note : You can't use dnd rules as a "pvp rpg", this rules are made for party adventure rpg. So of course that the game(not only sorcery) will be broken in pvp. To be honest i rather have cool broken abilities like in Morrowind than generic limited abilities like elder scrolls online. source [url=https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Stop]https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Stop[/url]

Normal means noncrafted one? Or normal means without any bonuses? I may try to setup two characters and let you compare. One with max created weapon and other with only premade nwn2 items to compare xD I wont even use max avaliable item

Original mention of nwn2 crafting was "Strategy in nwn2 : Get a +500 weapon that attack 20x per round with 50D20 fire, acid, cold, etc damage". Post wasn't about that you CANT create broken weapons in game. It that you don't need them to play. And as an example about weapon. In my first playthrough I completely missed Kaetlin in Mulsantir. So I had to make Gann as my tank.

I remember this because of how insanely fast Gann dropped as soon as Okku comed into melee range. And how my game was turned after that in insame running and spells spumming. Had to take around 80 tries. If game is really so gear dependent, then question - why did gann wasn't able to withstand Okku? He had awesome tanking gear. I wasted all my money getting it for him. I even gave him my own natural armor amulet. He had pretty much best tanking setup possible for him(he lacked mythral fullplate). Yet, he was able to strike Okku maybe once, and then was dead. Since all his attacked missed. And I was too busy trying to save my two mages from ton of angry mobs, who all run after them. That does't look like that game is just a gear check. And while gear dependency do exist, its not MAIN game dependency. And there are build that depend on gear more(swash\fighter\duelist\weaponmaster insanely depends, while Bard24/FB2/RDD4 or cleric\stormlord feel themselves ok with just a rusty sword or +0 throwing axe, and wizard9/scolar10/Red wizard10/shadowdancer1 as evoker or necromancer(for OC+MotB can be decently good also abjurator) pretty much just want a decent +int item and some robe)

I'm not saying nwn cant be tactical I'm saying that nwn has a lot of cheap spell and cheap stuff which it kinda needed since you yourself was in unfair situation(since mechanics were pretty much build for party by original designer). You got battle familiar just so you could have a body between you and enemy. When you got real tank - this was returned. You had a lot of defence spells because you pretty often ended up right on enemy blade(well, you still do, but now its mitigated by real partymembers). It was a way of trying to fix one broken mechanic with another broken, but now into your favour. So once again - I'm defending nwn2 againt unfair critique that its game where all tactic was replaced with "craft insane item" and where casters are unplayable

Yeah, but here is a problem. If you let players play online and damage each other - there will be pvp. That also a thing that developers should have considered while balancing stuff. Morrowind was solo game, so balancing there is a less required then for game with pretty decent online component(ability to play with "actual" dm)

"Yeah, but here is a problem. If you let players play online and damage each other - there will be pvp. "

The game should be based in D&D, not a generic rpg. And some spell effects like "animate weapon" are missing in nwn. If you think that some things are broken in pvp, you can disable in your server but force everyone to not use this things is silly if is in base game.

I prefer cool abilities than raw power. For example, my favorite anime is JoJo, why? Because isn't "my energy ball is bigger than your energy ball, so i will gonna win", some stands like red hot chili pepper are powerful not due his raw power but due his unique ability. A lot of spells like animate weapon should be added to nwn, not removed.

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"I'm saying that nwn has a lot of cheap spell and cheap stuff which it kinda needed since you yourself was in unfair situation"

This "cheap stuff" is abilities that everyone can use and this "unfair situations" are obstacles. And guess what. Even using Mestil's acid sheath, stop time, haste, etc Mephistopheles was not easy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98j2JNmkc5I

Only used shapechange in final because he can dispel my spells; note that he takes almost no damage from 2 epic spells.

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" I'm defending nwn2 againt unfair critique that its game where all tactic was replaced with "craft insane item" and where casters are unplayable "

According to you sorcerers are glass pistols... And you are right.

When you develop a game you don't just throw everything in one pot. You balance. Nwn had problems with balancing and many of them was attempted to be fixed in nwn2(but buggy scripting actually work somewhat against it, here is my few favourite bugs - practiced spellcaster is unable to understand that PrC you take is progressing your CL, so Sorc\ASoc end up with 34 caster level and fact that light penalties for Drow and etc are NOT applyed outside of character sheet. Oh, and if warlock take spell penetration - its effect halved)

What was your build? From what I get from your "spell immunity" question you wasted not one and not two levels on nonspellprogressing class for "more hp" which ended up in weak spells with yet no ability to fight in melee.

In baldur gates. Through there they are ok few to not very big amount of really high treats. And while in Nwn2 sorcs kinda fall behind wizards(RWT just dominate offensive caster) they are still best row power class with least gear dependance in game.Assuming you took your time to learn game mechanics. One strong enemy? Bigby him! A lot of melee enemies? Web\Grease. Guy hide under spellmantle? Enervation/Feeblemind/Bigby's Crushing Hand. Or just ask Elanee\Gyth\Kaetlin\Gann to storm of vengeance.

Bigby itself is one best line of spells in game. Dew to graple check. Here is some explanation
Once you get over spell resistance(do not trade CL for hp in you spellcaster) it goes into graple hit check with this type of rolles
Caster Roll: d20 + Primary Spell Ability Modifier + Caster level + 12 - 1
Target Roll: Target's full AC

Lets analyse Caster rolls. If you are sorc, your primary spell attribute is charisma and you will end up with 30 charisma in the end. That give us modifier of +10. Next CL - if we didn't trade caster levels we have 30 CL(or if we cheated with precticed spellcaster bug then 34, bnut lets not cheat).
This gives us roll bonus of 51. That means if your enemy has 52 AC you will succesfully grapple hit him no matter of roll(if rolls are similar it counted as hit) And if enemy has 60AC, you grapple hit him of 8 and up

Next we go into second part of grapple check. Grapple hold
Caster Roll: d20 + Primary Spell Ability Modifier + Caster Level + 12 + 4
Target Roll: d20 + Full base attack bonus + Size Modifier + Strength Ability Modifier
New check gives us bonus of 54. But thats meaningless without analysing target roll here

Lets assume our target has high bab all the way(most monsters do not) this gives us bonus 30. I don't exactly remeber size modifiers. As far as I remember colossal enemy has +16 and everyone else has even numbers with medium size having none and small having -4, so lets take somewhat like +8. Very Large target.(Akachi is meduim btw) then str bonus. Normal enemies don't have 30 str normall, but lets give them it. +10 bomus. All together if gives us... 48... 6 points less. And I was extremeluy generous here - most of enemies would have even less bonus. So assuming thet your roll was at LEAST enemy roll MINUS 6, you successfully paralysed your enemy with grapple.

Conclusion - grapple checks are rigged towards caster even in pvp enviroment

This "balance" is what is destroying RPG games. Compare Dragon age Origins with the piece of crap of dragon age inquisition or compare Morrowind with the piece of crap of ESO. RPG's are based in myths, real life isn't balanced, so the "real life myths" aren't balanced.

"balance" is a excuse to get rid of all good things in a game. Guess what. Fun >>>> balance. And everyone can use "broken" stuff.

No, A number of energy missiles (one per caster level but to a maximum of 20) http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_greater_missile_storm

The majority of high amage spells cap his damage at lv 20/25

Good luck fighting a guy with 700hp(i can reach 700 hp if i transform to balor), taking 60+d6 acid damage and 30+d6 each time that you attack he, with a improved DR, that can stop time to heal, trow maximized Isaac's greater missile storm in your ahhh and he is immune to fire damage,, to sleep, paralysis and high saves. IF I TRADE 10LV OF RDD FOR SORC LEVEL, I WILL PROBABLY HAVE MORE PROBLEMS against Mephistopheles. If my spells that bypass SR barely scratch him, imagine using spells who can't bypass SR, no fire immunity and less hp. Yes, you can cast fire immunity, but he can dispel.

Even at low level(sorcerer lv 12), i managed to kill a white dragon without any problems. Against high spell resistant creatures, i can kill using this tactic. Mephistopheles is probably the unique creature in game that can dispel my defenses while do more than 60 pts of melee damage.

This almost pure sorc(sorc 28/pal 1) used the same tactic as i've used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX-UqzM_VHg

Now i've played some modules and now have more epic spells, including a spell that gives +20 AC and a +50 DR epic spell.

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See another videos. Everyone have problems with him. Isn't like faceless man of nwn2 that you will see a lot of videos of people killing him in less than a minute.

Balance in an excuse to get rid of situations "I feel completely useless when I'm near this class" Morrowind vs ESO is complete backward comparesment, couse its different genres. Balance do not destroy ways it play. It add them. "Streamlining" is hurting fun staff. Kotor 2 is significally better balanced then Kotor 1(where there were no reasons to try to be nonmelee build or use anything else then lightsaber). Wactraft 3 TFT is better balanced then RoC, where nightelves has almost no ways to counter gargoyles. Sometimes you add, sometimes you cut. But balance is not an excuse. Balance is idea that everyone can have fun in game. And situations when you enter the room, get immedeatly killed by stone gaze of a bunch of Basilisks has nothing fun in it.

Only you are not this. If you play through SotU and HotU you will most likely end up with 26/27 lvl. 10 RDD in such enviroments simply cut you from ability to achieve level 20. And when you cut CL - you make weak caster. If you getting RDD, you would be better off with that selfbuffing melee build you showed me. Permahaste is too nice of a thing in melee xD

And once again - I don't care if you prefer nwn becouse of broken spells which most ofthen then not are bunned or reedited in PW enviroments(which is a big sign of it being indeed broken). I debunk you idea that nwn2 casters are weak and nwn2 is just a stupid gear check for melee classes, since it's clear that you have really really shallow understanding of mechanics of both games.

I'm not a master to read builds by video.
All I remember is that on my sorc playthrough I didn't have any problems with any of Hotu bosses on Full dnd. And I was too lazy to use timestop and shields. And without excessive grinding to get 29 lvl in Hotu

This in theory. If D&D is not unbalanced, a game that copies his rules are not unbalanced. Balance is used as a excuse to make the game 100% gear dependent(and put action houses) and remove cool abilities.

I agree that a lv 28 sorc is better than a lv 18 sorc/10 rdd, my point is : A lv 30 sorcerer/10 rdd is better than a lv 40 sorc(since few spells have no cap in caster level).

I only leveled RDD once i've learned all epic spell that i wanna have. Played OC with sorc, played the first chap of hotu with sorc and a little of the second cap then Sands of Fate with sorc until lv 28, then leveled my sorc then started again the second chap of hotu with a sorc lv 28 and a few levels of RDD.

Debunked? Show me one video of a guy killing faceless man in less than 2 minutes(as the melee guys can do) with sorc and let's see.

PS : Even with this """broken spells"""", a lv 40 sorc can't kill the final boss in less than 2 minutes.

Playing on easy?

IMO, saying you don't need crafted weapons, is just people bragging that they are "better" than other people.

Regardless you are going to ridiculous levels defending the absurd crafting in NWN2.

Then you use my other complaint (absurd 3.5 features) to defend the absurd crafting.

Two of my main complaints about NWN2 are the absurd crafted weapons, and how over the top the 3.5 features are.

You use one absurdity to justify the other, when IMO they are both crap.

Yes, spells that can't easily kill the final boss in nwn1 are broken but crafted weapons in nwn2 aren't broken. /sarcasm

Not wanting to get dragged into this, but I can confirm this.
I had HELL with the Faceless Man when I played a wizard. On the other hand, my paladin/champion character pulverized him in a single try.

Faceless man is permahasted Level 30 Cleric/5 Fighter with several spelllike abilities with all stats at 30 and Akachi Scythe +10. His clones has 18 in every stats and just one effect.(fury is hasted, hunger is vampiric regeneration +2). He can be put down in melee easily if you manage to put up around 40 AB(with all bonuses) and around 40-45 AC. If you are a caster - he can be easily put down if you manage to pull high DC(IE do not waste CL and stats on useless junk) and once again pull up at least 40 AC(after buffing). And paladin/DC can get not 40. Wizard require some buffing, but he also can be pretty defended xD


P.S. Btw despite being permahasted he only has 6 attacks per round. So he has 5 natural attack so his bab is lower then 24

I agree NWN 2 has too many features removed from NWN 1. It is just a bad game nice graphics but a bad game, there needs to be a NWN 1 Remake that would be cool.

This will never happens. They will make more 564165315 generic mmo and action games with almost to no Role Play elements. That is the market tendency. Look to Dragon age 2/Inquisition, Wizardry Online, ESO, etc, etc, etc; that is the tendency, action games with little RPG elements are the future. Good RPG's are dead...